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Ultimatte In Nuke Vs Fusion?


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#1 karahana

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 10:55 PM

I've heard that ultimatte will be included in nuke's toolset starting from next version. I've used ultimatte in fusion 5 before as a plugin and to be sincere while results were good, performance was surprisingly low. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone just lookig forward to your experiences with the keyer and if you know about the ultimatte for nuke thing. I've heard that is gonna be licensed like primatte and keylight. I think i've mentioned before that Fusion needs more decent keyers and if this proves to be true nuke will be having IBK, primatte, keylight and ultimatte. Looks wuite difficult to beat. Anyway if u had a better experience than mine with ultimatte in fusion, it would be great to know.

cheers!

#2 Richard Turner

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 12:58 AM

Yes, it is in 6.1, that's the 4th high end keying system added to Nuke now (Ultimate, Primatte, Keylight and my fave IBK). Time to catch up a little Eyeon I think. Also Nuke X has an excellent 3D tracker in it.

I also used Ultimate and Primate in Fusion, and both work very well. All keyers have different strengths so they are good for different jobs. I could never rely on just one. Sadly, as Fusion is my main tool, I do all my keying and tracking in Nuke now, and also a lot of complicated comping. Fusion is almost becoming my motion graphics app and Nuke my film comp app.

cheers

Rich

#3 SecondMan

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 03:59 AM

I have recently switched from Ultimatte to Keylight. Probably forever.

Yes, Ultimatte had great results but is really slow, and I honestly grew tired of asking for a 64 bit version all the time, simply being met with excuses about how their 3rd party UI libraries prevented them from doing so. We're talking about a 1500 dollar app here.

Using multiple Ultimatte nodes in a scene greatly reduces stability as well, to the point where it becomes almost unusable on difficult multilayer keys.

Now, Keylight. Different story. 200 bucks for a license, and the results are VERY close to Ultimatte's. I tend to need a few more instances of keyers now to get to where I want, but given Keylight's speed, stability and 64bit-ness, that's no issue at all.

All that said, I do wish to see Fusion's 2D capabilities develop a bit more in the near future. They could use a bit of TLC...

#4 karahana

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 11:45 PM

Well, both of u r right. IMO Ultimatte is slow. I've seen the Nuke's version working yesterday I believe and it has the nuke's interface, so no more excuses from them. I'm really sad about eyeon's demise of keyers. I really cant understand Nuke's the lack of good paint system,masks, mask feathers and simply terrible blurs. They just look so synthetic... Those are main reasons why I'm staying with Fusion but if they continue to ostracize good keyers from the workflow... there's only one way to go and it's not back to Shake.

#5 SirEdric

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 01:01 AM

Hi Karahana.

Sorry, I don't get your point about ostracising?
Ultimatte, Primatte and Keylight are available as plugins for Fusion as well.

Have Phun.

Eric.

#6 SecondMan

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 06:25 AM

The point is - as always - that Nuke comes with fully licensed very good keyer(s) out of the box. Fusion doesn't. I like the new Ultrakeyer, but it's not a good keyer, like Nuke's IBK seems to be. Irrelevant of how much good keyers cost (Keylight is really cheap - so is Syntheyes in the similarly recurring 3D tracking scenario), it is a point and one that I hear coming up over and over again in favour of Nuke.

#7 pingking

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 03:41 PM

if you choose the "a la carte" version with "superscription" you get fusion + primatte + twixtor for 3500 USD (incl. 1 year subscription) + 500 USD for syntheyes + ultimatte 1300 USD + keylight for 250 USD you get your favorite comp package with all the keyers and optical flow retiming for a total of:
5550 USD

thats 1650 USD less then NukeX which you can spend on other great plugins or even a new total new pc


and i see eyeon spend more time on developing better, unique tools and removing bugs than spending time on making deals with software developers

#8 ChadCapeland

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 04:36 PM

And personally, I don't want a keyer, I want an iterative energy reducing merge node. Keying is so 20th century.

- Chad

#9 robocop

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 11:56 PM

iterative energy reducing merge node

hmm.. sounds decisively! ) what is it?

#10 Gringo

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:13 AM

I still think Primatte is a really good keyer. The algorithm lets you make rather sophisticated color selections and if you do it carefully, you get nice soft edges preserving details.

I want an iterative energy reducing merge node.

Sounds interesting indeed!

#11 ChadCapeland

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:39 AM

iterative energy reducing merge node

hmm.. sounds decisively! ) what is it?


Google "Gradient Domain" and you'll get some recent papers on the topic.

#12 robocop

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 03:23 PM

Google "Gradient Domain" and you'll get some recent papers on the topic.


omg! guys, i`m with Chad! )
http://graphics.cs.c...int/grad.r7.mp4

#13 karahana

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 01:26 AM

Hi there guys, I quite forgot about this post but here I'm.
Ok while gradient domain looks amazing!!! the thing is that in proper 21st century we still hate to deal with chroma freaking key hahah. So the thing is you could do all the math and show me that fusion is 1.5K less expensive than nukex (when you are not including furnance) and if u want to but it for fusion it's like 4 K more! Insane if u ask me but well it has a few operators which are great like denoise. It's slow I know but still included in the other package.
I'm not trying to make this a Fusion vs Nuke issue. I'm just trying to have nice tools in Fusion too. I end up going to nuke to do chroma... and then why would i come back to fusion for if I'm doing something there... render it and go back and forward duplicating footage doesn't seem logical nor wise thing to do.
Anyway I just wanted to point out how not happy I'm with out actual chroma keyers.

Loves the gradient domain paint Would like to see it implemented in ANY soft just to check it out.

#14 SecondMan

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 07:13 AM

Check out Neatvideo if you're interested in Denoising. I am using the 64 bit OpenFX version in Fusion and it runs circles around Nuke's denoiser.




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