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Kak. Or Ibk For Fusion. It Sucks Less.

Macros Matte SecondMan

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#76 fusionWannabe

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:21 PM

One more question. For an R3D, is there an advantage, as far as keying, to use the 'Linear' gamma curve setting in the loader?

I'd certainly like to work in linear, and I'm going to have to deal with the large discrepancy I'm noticing between my fluorescent colored swatches (most of which actually look closer to real-life if I change from REDgamma3 to linear, for some reason) and what I'm seeing in Fusion with a RedColor3/RedGamm3 loader (of course I realize I'll have to use a LUT to view the linear images).

#77 SecondMan

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 01:25 PM

Yes, clean plates is always a good thing to have! Especially with locked cameras, I don't understand why this seems to be a bit of a lost art nowadays...

A better question is probably "should I be compositing my projects in linear space?".

In terms of KAK in particular - only one way to find out, really: try it! :) From the top of my head, all you probably need to change in your current setup is re-select your Screen Color and dial the Lloyd or Lusty Finetune setting and you'd be pretty much done. In any case, there is no problem with KAK to work in linear or whichever color space you like. It will just do its thing, and it's entirely up to you if it addresses your needs.

PS. Thanks for the Lost Cargo compliment. It is not "my" film though - I was responsible for CG and compositing, but I appreciate it and I'll relay the message :) - I don't think there's a higher res version online; you can get it on DVD here: http://www.illuster..../9/default.ecms but the web shop link seems to be dead at the moment...

#78 Eagle1

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:42 PM

Sorry… all this writing. Why not just create a KAVT (Kick Ass Video Tutorial)…? It is much faster than all of these technical descriptions.
Looking forward :o)
/Samsoe


:excl:

#79 fusionWannabe

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:38 PM

Now that I have color swatches (florescent orange seems to contain a good deal of green, who would have guessed?), I notice that if I apply a CC to the R3D before keying, I can key out some problem colors (like orange) that would not key at all, and improve the key for hair separation for some shades of dark blond hair.

Would it be possible to have an input to KAK that is the actual image to be used for the final output (which would default to the normal input if it is unused) - so that a CC'd image could be used for keying and an un-CC'd image for the final output?

#80 SecondMan

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:53 PM

Interesting question!

You can already do this, although it's implemented the other way around.

You can use the OpenKAK input for this, just like you did for the Garbage Matte. Whereas the Garbage Matte uses the green channel of the OpenKAK input, you can use the alpha channel of that same input to feed in a replacement matte for your key. I describe that here: http://www.vfxpedia....KAK_Description under "OpenKAK Controls".

So to make this work you would create two KAKs, one for each image (the CC'd one and the non-CC'd one, I will call them KAK1 and KAK2 respectively) and go through the usual steps as before until you have a key for both. Then feed the alpha channel result of KAK1 into the alpha channel of the OpenKAK input of KAK2. Then, in KAK2, turn on "Alpha" under the OpenKAK <- R/G/B/A menu.

Let me know how that turns out. :)

#81 fusionWannabe

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:02 AM

I found what I think is a nasty render bug in Fusion 6.4.

I don't think this is a problem caused by KAK, but ... figured I'd let you know in case there's a bug within KAK.

At first, I thought I'd keyframed a spline, causing artifacts at different positions.

But, then I rendered it again to a new folder after clearing the cache - and got artifacts at new frame positions.

Then, I rendered with just the single frame input - and when I got artifacts with that, I knew there was a bug somewhere?

"comparison of 2 renders.png" shows two renders at the same frame, one has a green outline that should not be there.

There are also numerous other artifacts of differing types, random noise, image disappears - all appearing at different frame positions in different renders.

I've run this on 6.4.0.1111 and 6.4.0.1092, each giving different errors at different frames.

Each time I've rendered, there has been one frame with the green outline (shown in included png), always at different frames.

I've included the comp and two R3D files (single frames, one of which is a clean plate).

The comp uses the "comp:/" prefix, so no changes are necessary to open the comp, except to create a 'Render' folder in the same directory as the comp.

Computer specifications:

dual Xeon Win7-64 box with SuperMicro X8DAE 48GB ECC RAM
GTX-580 with 3GB VRAM
RAID also uses ECC RAM
Crucial M4 256 GB cache.

zip file containing the files:
https://www.yousendi...xa0QwMEZvZE1UQw

I reported this same info to Eyeon from inside Fusion, and included the zip file.

#82 SecondMan

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:22 AM

I think it's a memory issue.

Your comp is set to 8 (!) frames at once with simultaneous branching; that's a bit over the top, perhaps? :)

Remember, one single KAK contains over one hundred nodes, and you are dealing with 4K images. Try setting your memory preferences to a single frame at once, and simultaneous branching off. Start from there and if that works, turn simultaneous branching on and test again. You might find that your renders will be a lot faster, too. I have a very modest machine compared to yours, but I got the comp to render at least. I did see those artifacts you described when my machine was having trouble assigning memory to whatever it was trying to do, so it's definitely worth sending this to Eyeon to get their take on this, but you might want to keep an eye on your resources in the meantime ;)

Hope that helps!

PS. good reporting by the way, thanks for putting in the effort! :)

#83 xmare

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:08 AM

Your comp is set to 8 (!) frames at once with simultaneous branching; that's a bit over the top, perhaps? :)

Remember, one single KAK contains over one hundred nodes, and you are dealing with 4K images. Try setting your memory preferences to a single frame at once, and simultaneous branching off. Start from there and if that works, turn simultaneous branching on and test again. You might find that your renders will be a lot faster, too.


To take this a bit further - Fusion I/o handling isn't that good, there is another thread for that with some testing: http://www.pigsfly.c...hl=performance. The best setting i got was using 2frames@ once even on quite good machine with good RAID and RAM. :( a bit sad

#84 fusionWannabe

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 12:52 PM

I think it's a memory issue.

Your comp is set to 8 (!) frames at once with simultaneous branching; that's a bit over the top, perhaps? :)

Remember, one single KAK contains over one hundred nodes, and you are dealing with 4K images. Try setting your memory preferences to a single frame at once, and simultaneous branching off. Start from there and if that works, turn simultaneous branching on and test again. You might find that your renders will be a lot faster, too. I have a very modest machine compared to yours, but I got the comp to render at least. I did see those artifacts you described when my machine was having trouble assigning memory to whatever it was trying to do, so it's definitely worth sending this to Eyeon to get their take on this, but you might want to keep an eye on your resources in the meantime ;)

Hope that helps!

PS. good reporting by the way, thanks for putting in the effort! :)


This morning, I changed "memory preferences to a single frame at once, and simultaneous branching off" - and was able to render 169 frames without any issues, however, it's about 50% slower.

[Edit] I later found the 'simultaneous branching' seems to be the problem, as I was able to change to 2 frames at once without the artifacts, and it was maybe 30% faster than with a single frame at once.

[Edit2] I was able to go to 8 frames at once without artifacts with this comp and the single-frame R3D, BUT ... when I put a multi-frame R3D in, I ended up with a lot of issues like disappearing images and noise. These issues went away when I went back to the very slow single frame at once.

Thanks a lot for solving the problem!!

To take this a bit further - Fusion I/o handling isn't that good, there is another thread for that with some testing: http://www.pigsfly.c...hl=performance. The best setting i got was using 2frames@ once even on quite good machine with good RAID and RAM. :( a bit sad


I've got to start rendering a 15 minute R3D on Monday (with 6 total to render), and that took 10.46 seconds per frame for 1 frame at once outputting to .tga (my Xeons are less than 1/2 the top speed available) - so ... I'm trying to figure my best plan of attack to get the best speed while avoiding artifacts.

I'll start experimenting to find the best settings - while avoiding the artifacts.

There are no doubt other settings in Fusion I need to review - I need to get back to the very basics!

Thanks for that link on the 2frames@once setting - that may prove to the the best - but ... yes, a bit sad to think of those cores being wasted!!

#85 SecondMan

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:14 PM

You're welcome. Well, to be fair I didn't really solve the problem - just offered an admittedly feeble workaround. A 50% drop in speed is, in the words of the great Billy Connolly, about as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit.

The trouble with finding the exact cause is that once you see the issue appear and stop the render to go through the comp interactively, the issue goes away.

Anyway, the good news is you can in any case go ahead... :)

But before you do - I am hoping those .tga files are for proxy or test work? TGA is only 8 bit, so whatever you do, don't use them for your final keys and comps... ;)

#86 fusionWannabe

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 01:30 PM

You're welcome. Well, to be fair I didn't really solve the problem - just offered an admittedly feeble workaround. A 50% drop in speed is, in the words of the great Billy Connolly, about as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit.

The trouble with finding the exact cause is that once you see the issue appear and stop the render to go through the comp interactively, the issue goes away.

Anyway, the good news is you can in any case go ahead... :)

But before you do - I am hoping those .tga files are for proxy or test work? TGA is only 8 bit, so whatever you do, don't use them for your final keys and comps... ;)

Good point on 8-bit tga!

I do need alpha (for both proxy and final), so what has alpha and an acceptable resolution other than png?

Tiffs I heard are slow.

EXR - or the Fusion RAW format?

Also - when I finish each 21600 frame render, considering the artifacts I've seen, I need to be able to view the entire sequence to look for problems.

I was hoping to use Premiere for that, as it plays R3Ds full speed at 1/2 resolution, so ... hopefully it will play an image sequence at at full speed without rendering?

Premiere does have a 3rd party EXR plug-in, but ... I doubt it can read the Fusion RAW format?

#87 pingking

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 03:05 PM

png is also very slow to compress/decompress would not recommend using it

a good thing of EXR is that i can have DOD inside the file, so it needs only to store and read the stuff inside the DOD.
also there are some lossy compression in exr that are realy fast on playback (B44 and B44A), but they have chroma subsampling so stay away if you want to key from that footage

#88 SecondMan

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:27 PM

Another vote for EXR here.

Don't underestimate Fusion itself for playing back files. Obviously 21600 frames is nothing to be sniffed at, but ultimately you will have to check all of them at full res. You can load quite a few in that 48GB of yours. No, it won't be real-time loading, but you would be looking at the full res and colour depth so for quality checking you would only have to do it once.

Try Generation, too - it really is an awesome tool to keep track of your shots' progression and reviewing frames, keeping notes etc. At the current pricing it's a no-brainer. Just get it.

#89 Tilt

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 02:06 AM

Or if you really just want to have a quick playback option to see if there's flickering or broken frames... add a second Saver with a jpeg sequence with a bit of compression (0.95). It'll be tiny (you could even do it half-res) and it will play back quickly.

Pieter, how much does Generation cost? I think I've been missing out on the preview candidate... can't seem to find any info on that in the public yet ;-)

by the way, eyeon... Youtube says "This video is private" for the Generation video on that page: http://www.eyeonline.com/Support.html :mf_argue:

#90 pingking

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 03:40 AM

At least 3dpowerstore lists generation at 995 and i guess that is the price eyeon mentioned at some time






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